tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36174792.post7302250895729559021..comments2023-08-05T11:39:59.112+02:00Comments on Dreams and Daemons : Discover your inner Basque (Part 1)sciencebodhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12051016731274875332noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36174792.post-21171914615539701922007-06-15T22:07:00.000+02:002007-06-15T22:07:00.000+02:00Those Celts get everywhere! But you'll need to wor...Those Celts get everywhere! But you'll need to work a bit harder on this Anglo-Saxon to persuade me that Basque has roots in Celtic, Iberian and Latin. Perhaps you would care to list a few words they share in common.<BR/><BR/>I note that your username "Occam" is newly created. Do we know you from a previous existence?sciencebodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12051016731274875332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36174792.post-5391921491290136462007-06-15T21:56:00.000+02:002007-06-15T21:56:00.000+02:00Oppenheimer´s take on our supposed Basque origins ...Oppenheimer´s take on our supposed Basque origins is limited and superficial. If Basque DNA closely matches many a geographically and linguistically disparate celtic grouping, could there be a case for Basque DNA having being influenced by celtic imput rather than vice versa? Even sans Occam´s razor the answer is a resounding ¨Yes!¨ The indigenous tribes of what now constitutes the Spanish Basque country, the Autrigones, the Caristios and the Vardulos have all been attributed with a strong (to say the least) celtic dash. Even the Vascones from whom the Basques take their name is a celtic word and the language they spoke has by no means been established. Indeed the Basque language itself bears witness to immense borrowings from celtic, Iberian and latin, though the former is hotly contested by Basque nationalists fighting a desperate rearguard action to preserve their imagined linguistic/racial purity. More recent and exhaustive studies of hydronomy and toponomy in this crucial region point to a surprising and ancient proto-celtic substratum. Add to this the latest linguistic arguments for an indigenous, paleolithic indoeuropean presence (paleolithic continuity theory), could there possibly be any more evidence that Oppenheimer has put the cart before the horse? Yes,there could! Recent studies on Basque fossil DNA(Coffman/Whitney) clearly indicate a definitive break between an ancient(Basque?)population and the modern day Basques.Intriguingly,a good part of this ancient Basque DNA suggests a Middle Eastern origin.One thing these studies make abundantly clear is that there was a subsequent period of prolonged and intense schmoozing between this population and the atlantic fringe celts.Maybe we should take a look at the Finnish model! Imagine the original Sami population had been reduced to even less than their actual 20% and the modern Finnish population, which had slowly encroached upon and inter-schmoozed with them, now imagined themselves to be RACIALLY Finno-Ugric and DAMN PROUD OF IT!!The attested Basque custom of men moving in with their newly-wed´s family is tailor-made for just such a phenomenon.What we may well be looking at is a population of atlantic fringe celts speaking a Middle Eastern/Iberian creole! Who could ask for anything more?Occamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16732515714275021220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36174792.post-24332079678871229412007-01-31T12:44:00.000+01:002007-01-31T12:44:00.000+01:00I don't doubt a word of what you say, jojo re Celt...I don't doubt a word of what you say, jojo re Celtic genetic distinctiveness. But isn't that to do with the original Celts who settled in Britain? <br /><br />What Oppenheimer is saying is that the Celts, or Anglo-Saxons or other immigrants did not supplant or assimilate the original Basque-descended native population, and that with time Celtic genes, even in Wales, Ireland etc have come to represent no more than 10% or thereabouts of the total genome.<br /><br />In other words, we are all "Britannians", but we come in different genetic flavours. Maybe that makes you a Celto-Britannian.<br />I'm possibly a Saxo-Britannian. But we're both 90% Britannian, and maybe 70 or 80% Basque.sciencebodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12051016731274875332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36174792.post-21265048050629222732007-01-30T20:34:00.000+01:002007-01-30T20:34:00.000+01:00The welsh are of a predominantly meditteranean app...The welsh are of a predominantly meditteranean appearance. Most people in wales have black hair and brown eyes with white skin (some have dark skin like ruth madoc, imogen thomas and catherine zeta jones (whos mum is only 1/4 irish btw)). some welsh people have blonde hair or red hair with blue eyes too (about 5-7% at most).<br /><br />In population genetics on y-chromosomesthe welsh are in haplogroup markers 88% r1b, 5% I, 4% e3b, 2% r1a and 1% j2.<br /><br />Haplogroup r1b averages 90-95% amongst the basques<br />of northern spain and south-western france. The basques speak a language isolate and are descended from the people that lived there some 35000 years ago.<br /><br />genetic marker r1b is 70% in spain , northern italy and 65% in portugal. R1b is only 22% in sweden and 1% in finland. r1b is 40% in germany.<br />R1b is found highest in atlantic britain, western ireland, western france, northern span and western portugal. Genetic marker r1b is found in greatest diversity in northern spain indicating it originated there.<br /><br />The basques have no relationship with the celts or any north european ethnic group. None of the peoples of spain or southwestern france do.<br /><br />Most welsh people are descened from people who arrived from the iberian refuge in the paleolithic and mesolithic. The celtic languages did not originate in central europe, they originated in north western spain and came to britain via the atlantic coast fo france. A roman general mistakedly located a river in the pyrenees for being the danube and the home of the celts hence the myth started.<br /><br />Language spareading only requires a minority elite and most geneticists and historians agree that populations have changed very little in the last 7000-5000 years despite languages spreading very fast.<br /><br />The welsh along with the people of western ireland, cornwall and scotland have significant middle eastern influences on maternal dna (from north africa via spain) that arrived in the mesolithic.<br /><br />Evidence for welsh genetics:<br />http://www.prospect-magazine.co....ils.php? id=7817<br />http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales...les/ 1256894.stm<br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wel...ki/ Welsh_People<br />http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cg...22/10/1964/ TBL1<br />http://www.geocities.com/littled...ect/ Cavalli.htm<br /><br /><br /><br />Evidence for Welsh phenotype:<br />http://upload.wikimedia.org/wiki...ace_- _Map_4.jpg<br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ima...e: Pobolycwm.jpg<br />http://www.misswales.co.uk/ hallo...halloffame.html<br />http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/pobol...cwm/characters/<br />http://www.rhosjudokwai.co.uk/7)...)% 20PHOTOS.html<br /><br />Youtube video of welsh tv programs spoken in welsh<br />http://youtube.com/watch?v=PslYcjWFNNU<br />http://youtube.com/watch?v=dnuHaUhWqNYAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36174792.post-86455277720221626332006-11-11T23:25:00.000+01:002006-11-11T23:25:00.000+01:00Awesome stuff! Very helpful to budding linguists o...Awesome stuff! Very helpful to budding linguists on the net!<br /><br />As for the "Where did Basque come from?" issue, after studying languages for decades, I've gotten the impression that there is a little hint of national pride that raises its ugly head when answering the question. <br /><br />I mean to say, we have to remember that Basque people have a particular interest for the sake of propoganda to paint themselves as "being in Europe since time immemorial". Certainly they HAVE been in Europe for *at least* 4000 years, but not "immemorial". We can get carried away with emotive words if we're not careful. Also the Basque, like other people, were influenced by Mediterranean trading before the Romans and many people don't know this wonderful fact, assuming that the Basque were truly "isolated". They never were.<br /><br />These are good reminders to people trying to learn the *real* Basque without the hype usually associated with these minority peoples who are often exploited in books for their exoticness and "mystery". <br /><br />There is no such thing as mystery if you choose to open your eyes and frankly the latter is waaaay more interesting :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com